Michael: Hello and welcome to Postgres.FM,
a weekly show about

all things PostgreSQL.

I am Michael, founder of pgMustard.

This is my cohost Nikolay, founder of Postgres.AI.

Hey Nikolay, how's it going?

Nikolay: Hi Michael, everything is all right.

How are you?

Michael: I'm good, thank you.

So this week it was my choice and I have picked the topic of

Postgres online communities partly because when I was new to

Postgres, I would have loved this kind of conversation as to if

I've got a question, if I've got like a deeply technical question

where should I post it or how should I post it, there's so many

online forums communities social media sites that. I found it

quite daunting to kind of know where were people what kind of

things worked well in different places. That kind of thing. So

I thought I'd bring that and see and I know we're kind of on

Slightly different social networks or where we tend to spend

more of our time. So I'd be really interested in your views on

why you like the ones that you like that kind of thing as well.

Nikolay: Yeah, well first of all we exclude offline communities,

right?

Yeah, and for example long ago in Russia.

I was organizing meetups but then we had a rise in 2014 and 2015,

2016, and then I saw decline.

And I saw decline in the Bay Area where I moved around the same

time before that.

So I was visiting both places and I saw decline of this kind

of offline communities on both parts of the world and I still

don't understand why because at the same time front-enders had

huge meetups and at some point I decided to move fully online

all my attention and focus and activities you know last time

I stopped going to conferences.

So I like online, because online you can communicate asynchronously.

This is the key, right?

You can think and follow up and so on, And you can do it with

your convenience.

Of course, we lack a lot of stuff online, but for our work online

is great because you can share code, pictures, everything, discussing.

Actually, some online formats are not like that.

For example, podcast.

And I know we have our own small community of permanent listeners

and I'm thankful to the fact it's growing.

It's really good to hear feedback, to see feedback, to see from

customers mentioning that they constantly Listen to our podcast.

That's great.

It feels great.

But I still I agree with you.

It's like fragmented a lot of various places Right.

There's no there's no big central place.

There are quite big places, right,
but there's no single...

Michael: Well, maybe we should
start there, because on the...

I thought I'd go to the PostgreSQL.org
site, and there's a...

1 of the top headers is community,
and that links to mailing

lists...

Nikolay: Like a single community,
right?

Michael: I guess so, yeah.

I think it's just community with
a Y.

Yeah, so 1 community.

But it links to mailing lists,
which I think probably would count

as the big hub.

Like if you want to say that like
the official online community

of Postgres is probably the mailing
lists.

Nikolay: Yeah mailing lists and
IRC.

Michael: I don't remember what's

the other 1.

Nikolay: IRC is like, ooh.

And I know they say community like
single, single community but

I don't feel I belong to this community.

We discussed it a few times in
the past.

I think there is a bigger community
and how I see it, it's different

from the definition of this so-called
official community, right?

So but you say communities, so
many, many of them, right?

I see, I'm closer to you in this
understanding.

So there are many groups and they
are interconnected.

And the single community, it's
like, it's good there is such

concept, but it's against
open-source idea.

Because open-source idea, there
should be many, many, many, many,

many things around, right?

So, mailing list I don't like.

IRC I don't almost touch.

It means this also like this is
just form, but there is also

content deviation, right?

And there are many other places
where people live.

And I remember times, now it's
much less, but I remember times

when something was discussed somewhere
and always some people

obviously feeling belonging to
the main community, they started

saying, oh, it's not the right
place to discuss things.

You should go to mailing list.

My reaction is...

Yeah.

Obviously if I react as I want
to react you will cut this out.

So I won't react publicly but I
guess our listeners can guess

my reaction.

If I want to be on Twitter or on
Telegram or Slack, I want to

be there.

That's it.

Michael: I guess it's a bit about
like development processes.

So when I've, I, I've got a background
of being a product manager

and part of your job as being a
product manager is listening

to your customers, listening to
what people think of your software.

And you can encourage them to use
the official forums, maybe

your product set has an official
way of giving you feedback.

But if you want the truth of what
people really think of your

software, you need to make sure
you're also on social media and

looking at mentions of your brand
wherever people are talking

about it, not just via your official
thing.

So I think I've seen some of those
conversations and I understand

what probably people, whether they
say it in a nice way or not,

what they're probably trying to
say is if you want the maximum

chance of your feedback being listened
to constructively and

actually some improvements coming
off the back of it, you're

best off reporting it in the official
channels, like the official

places.

But from the flip side, I've definitely
seen a lot of people

that have got very high influence
in the Postgres development

circles hanging out on Twitter,
in IRC, in like on LinkedIn,

wherever people are talking about
Postgres, you know, their product,

and doing that product management
kind of role of listening to

what issues people are having,
listening to what suggestions

people have.

So while some in the community
or communities might encourage

the more constructive places to
have that conversation, there

are also people listening and interacting
in the, everywhere

else as well.

So I can see both sides.

Nikolay: Yeah, but there are no
Postgres managers in this open-source

project.

Yeah, so if some hacker listens
to some in some place and just

picks up the idea that's great.

Michael: Exactly.

Nikolay: Yeah, but it's It's like
just random, right?

Michael: Well, I think random's
a bit, well yeah, I see what

you mean.

It relies a lot on those individual
hackers, but that's Postgres

development.

Postgres development, there's no
roadmap.

There's no, like, We all rely on
individual hackers to do various

things.

Nikolay: Yeah.

Yeah, and for matters I don't like
email.

I don't like IRC So what if I prefer
for example Twitter and

I keep calling it Twitter and I
don't like Elon Musk, you know

Like and so on.

Yeah, but I just it's just comfort
zone and you mentioned

Blue Sky before we decided.

Michael: Oh, yeah.

Nikolay: So it's like Twitter.

Yeah.

Michael: So I thought I'd bring
this conversation up now because

I saw a lot of people a lot of
technical folks that I follow

on Twitter on Mastodon I'm quite
I'm probably the most active

the place I read the most is on
Mastodon because I'm seeing some

really good technical conversations
happening there a lot of

those people are checking out Blue
Sky this week last week it

feels like a not necessarily people
are switching to it but a

lot of people seem to be checking
it out this week so they've

gone from like I think something
like 10 million users to about

15 million users in a week.

Overall.

Total.

So it's still tiny.

Nikolay: So who knows how many
of them use Postgres?

Maybe just a few.

Michael: What all I mean is more
that like it's still tiny.

I didn't want this conversation
to be about that.

But I thought, oh, it's actually
a good time to discuss where

are the good conversations happening
around post because if you

want to keep in the loop of what's
happening are you best off

having profiles like in which ones
which site should you be checking

like these are the kind of questions
I had at the beginning and

kind of just had to figure it all
out myself.

Nikolay: Yeah I think a lot of
good conversations are happening

on both Twitter and LinkedIn.

It's just there is a critical mass
there and I just feel very

comfortable discussing something
on Twitter.

And I know many, many, many hackers
also and just very experienced

users, not only from this Postgres
community, like from Capital

C, but also from like back-end
engineering in general, with good

experience of Postgres and good
problems they observe.

They are there and just sharing
sometimes ideas.

It's super, like, I feel really
comfortable just on Twitter.

And I know Slack is huge.

It's an official, right?

But it's Slack, I think, like,
how many, more than 10,000 people

there just for Postgres and special
Slack space, right?

And work space, how is it called?

And yeah, many, many discussions
and troubleshooting sessions

are happening right there.

I think it's already kind of a
good alternative to IRC.

Michael: Yeah,

I would say so I have
I definitely am more positive

about the mailing lists and IRC
than you are.

I do find email really helpful
and I still think it's incredible

the quality of support you can
get on both of those.

So as a user, not necessarily as
like a, so as a hacker, you

have to use the mailing list, like
it's the the way of communicating.

But the other mailing lists, the
non-hackers ones, like general,

performance, a few others, I find
it amazing that you can email

the performance mailing list and
probably within a day, maybe

within a few days, you're hearing
back from very, very experienced

Postgres hackers about your specific
performance question and

it helps if you've done some background
and given them really

good information to go on.

But even the people that don't
do that get great advice or at

least encouraged to find out the
things they need to be able

to be helped.

Which is unbelievable.

When you consider what you...

That's free support.

I think that's incredible.

And then IRC is a similar standard
it's not threaded I love the

emails threaded and asynchronous
IRC is like the opposite It's

not threaded and it's very very
synchronous

Nikolay: Mm-hmm

Michael: So I actually hadn't I've
when I first joined Postgres

because of I suspect this community
site I spent quite a lot

of time logged into IRC, you know
Watching the conversations

as they were happening and asking
the odd question myself and

I did learn a lot there are some
extremely experienced people

on that that are still very active
and still help people but

to give you some numbers there's
about 800 people live in the

PostgreSQL IRC channel.

Nikolay: How many people?

Michael: 800 or 783 right this
minute and There's 24,000 in

the PostgreSQL Slack, the Postgres team Slack

Nikolay: I'm checking Russian speaking
Postgres Telegram and

it has more than 13,000 members
right now and more than 5,000

online.

But quality of discussions there,
I cannot stay there for more

than 10 seconds because it's like...

Michael: As in is it beginner level
questions?

Nikolay: It's very beginner a lot.

Like, like it's like huge wave
of beginners.

And they have sometimes emotional
discussions, not quality, like,

like sometimes collapsing, like
clashing at each other and so

on.

And I can check also English speaking
Telegram groups, which

have like a couple of thousand
people, maybe less.

Yeah.

I actually, I created 1.

It's, it has more than 2000 members,
165 online, and there is

an alternative 1, almost 3000 members,
300 online.

And I don't know about the other,
the second 1, but that 1 I

created, well, it also sometimes
not good quality.

It's better quality than Russian
speaking, but when people share

screenshots, with poor, like, you
cannot understand what's written

there.

And it's terminal.

So like, it's just text, but there's
screenshot on or even not

screenshot a picture made from phone.

Yeah, it's just, And I just wait, maybe someday we will create,

you know, GPT API has it, like we can understand automatically

and just, you know, transform to text from the picture.

Someday we will probably have such bot, you know.

Sometimes really interesting discussions, but often no.

Often no.

So I visit this group maybe like once a week.

Michael: Yeah.

So I personally avoid though, I find these huge channels that

are not threaded Impossible.

Nikolay: Well telegram was like kind of threaded you can it's

not it's not convenient.

It's not like in Slack, right?

Michael: In Slack, it's great that I actually find the Postgres

Slack, even though it's 24,000 members, there's probably only

about, at least in the general channel, there's probably only

5 or 6 new conversations per day.

And people have gotten into a really good habit of replying to

those in threads.

So if you're interested in a thread, you can post in it or you

can get notified of new replies.

Most people are familiar with how Slack works.

But it means that if you're not interested in a part of a conversation,

you can not follow it.

Whereas in Telegram, or if you're in 1 of these non threaded

environments You can't avoid it.

You could all you can do is log out for a while, you know You

know, just not check it for a while scroll for a while And so

I yeah, I find that is quite difficult But as a imagine you're

Nikolay: a sample email, right?

Well email has topics.

I mean like there are threats obviously, right?

But yeah, but sometimes there's huge discussion and it's hard

to To there should be some sub threads right some tree But there

is no such thing there

Michael: Yeah, yeah So yeah, so I'm definitely pros and cons

But it's really I think it's good that there are places that

beginners can go to ask questions and get help.

It's remarkable that people are willing to help them, but I've

got a huge amount of respect for the people that do have the

patience for those conversations.

Nikolay: I agree.

I see people with huge experience.

I know those people and they're still there like dealing with

this storm of new people.

We're asking, well, it's just, you know, like some people enjoy

it helping others and I can understand, I can relate.

I did it also in the past, on Stack Overflow, for example, right?

Another place where...

Michael: Another great place.

Nikolay: Another additional community, right?

And if you just like helping people, it's great.

Yeah, there is critical mass for sure.

And yeah, there are sometimes good discussions even if there

are many many many many new users

Michael: yeah I actually think I wanted to give Stack Overflow

or at least Stack Exchange there's a dba.stackexchange.com as well

it's great and Reddit I think I want to put in a similar category

because I think they surface answers quite well.

So they're quite good at showing up in search results.

So if people are using a search engine to ask their basic beginner

question, there's a decent chance they'll come across a Stack Overflow

post or a Reddit post increasingly that has a good discussion

already on the topic.

And they maybe then don't have to ask the exact same question

again via Telegram or Slack, which don't have as good search,

or at least they don't have long histories.

Well, actually, maybe Telegram does, but people don't seem to

use it.

Nikolay: Yeah, you know, I'm checking Telegram right now.

And actually, last many days, I don't see these pictures of console

made on phone and we're quite good discussions and I see people

use threads.

Telegram has like kind of virtual threads it's still like flat

but you can open specific discussion if people use reply you

can see only like part of it kind of thread but but not like

visually it's not there right so yeah and I agree with you on

Stack Overflow points.

I cannot agree on Reddit, maybe I just have not a lot of experience

hanging out there.

What about Hacker News?

Michael: Just to quickly, oh yeah, let's get to Hacker News.

I think Reddit is surprisingly good.

Like I think it's the PostgreSQL Reddit.

I'm not talking about Reddit generally, but the PostgreSQL subreddit

specifically.

There must be some people, and I've set this up recently as well,

that subscribe to the RSS feed of new posts to Reddit.

Again there's probably only something in the region of 5 to 10

new posts per day to the Reddit and some of that is people sharing

blog posts and you know promoting things that they've written

or they've found good posts from other people.

But a lot of it is beginner level questions and there are some

people again some of the same people I'll give definitely people

like I see depression pretty much all of these helping people

out and I that guy has such good patience and so Helpful to people

but people like Sean Thomas in the Discord, there's a Discord

as well that has a very similar beginner friendly vibe.

David Johnson, I'm sure there's tons of people that we could

give shoutouts out to, but even
on the Reddit people are replying

same day often within an hour of
the post with very helpful stuff.

So it's surprisingly synchronous
for an asynchronous channel,

a bit like the email thread, a
bit like the mailing list, and

a bit like Stack Overflow.

You know, you can get an answer
really quickly for something

that's designed to be asynchronous.

And then I think they're doing
a better and better job of surfacing

those questions to people asking
the same via Google.

So if you're asking the same question
someone asked 2 years ago,

there's a really good chance you'll
still find it by the Reddit.

Whereas I don't think that's true.

Like on Slack, for example, the
history is invisible after a

certain number of messages.

Nikolay: 30 days if it's not paid,
of course, for 23,000 people

it's not paid.

Because it would cost something.

Michael: To give you an idea of
volume, in terms of just numbers,

there's 47,000 people that have
joined the PostgreSQL subreddit.

47,000!

Nikolay: Over many years,
right?

Michael: Over many years,
yeah.

Nikolay: Well, it's super
easy to join there, because

it's not like in Slack, you need
to pass through some gateways.

There is just 1 button, follow
it, that's it.

Michael: The Slack 1 is not necessarily
easy to find the invitation

link so I'll post that in the show
notes.

Nikolay: Yeah, yeah.

And what about, again, what about
Hacker News and what about

maybe Meta threads or some new
stuff, some new places?

Michael: Well, I actually don't
even have an I don't have an

account on Metas threads I saw
a couple

Nikolay: of Postgres folks there,
but not active.

I think it's not for Postgres yet
And who knows what there are

many discussions there and they
push all the time notifying through

Instagram or maybe through Facebook
I don't know I use Instagram

for a family picture so I see notifications
from thread about

different topics not about Postgres
yet

Michael: We're probably the wrong
generation for that, but I

definitely only use Instagram for
personal stuff rather than

for professional things.

Nikolay: What about Hacker News?

It's not a social network, it's
just a single place with random

topics.

Postgres is on the front page,
Postgres-related topics are very

often on the front page.

Michael: I think Hacker News is
a good place for seeing things

that are happening in the tech
space in general, but if you relied

only on Hacker News for your news
around Postgres, I think you'd

be missing out on a bunch.

I think only certain types of topics
do well.

They have to be, I don't know quite
how to define what it is.

It seems to be a certain depth
of technical article does really

well on there, but not too niche.

And also, I think there's maybe
like a dev, it's very dev focused

rather than DBA, like it feels
very back end or full stack developer

crowd.

And There's

Nikolay: many more of such people
around, right?

So in general, number of back-end
engineers is much, many more

than like database engineers.

For example,

Michael: There can be extremely
good conversation.

I know it gets a bad reputation
for the quality of conversation

on this in some circles, but sometimes
I come across really good

conversations there.

And sometimes it's people that
really know their stuff from the

database world popping into Hacker
News to help, you know, to

answer some questions or to comment
on some things.

Nikolay: Yeah, and this is a place
where you intersect with other

very different communities.

Because you can see people who
hate Postgres, they come in to

comment.

Unlike, I think they don't go to
Postgres Slack to comment how

they hate Postgres, right?

That's a good point.

They are on Hacker News.

Even on Reddit, if you don't like,
you don't follow, so you don't

participate.

But on Hacker News, if some topic
Postgres related is on front

page.

Obviously some people will comment
with some hate speech a little

bit, but not often, not often.

But in general, obviously, like
people love Postgres in general.

This is for true, like for Sure.

But sometimes there are useful
grains in this, not hateful speech,

but you know, like skepticism.

And sometimes you hear people struggle
with MVCC design and bloat

or something.

They just like complain.

And these people are quite good,
educated and good engineers.

So it's like, Hacker News is a
place where you can hear people

struggling with some issues Postgres
still has.

And this cannot be ignored, right?

So this is a place where people
express in very technical, very

good technical form, what's the
problem.

Michael: Yeah, and I would add
Twitter to that as well as a place

where you

Nikolay: can get that.

Michael: Intersection.

Exactly.

Nikolay: LinkedIn, LinkedIn as well.

LinkedIn.

Michael: Yes, Although I've seen less of it on LinkedIn for some

reason.

I don't see that much negativity about Postgres on LinkedIn for

some reason.

Maybe just the people I'm connected to.

Nikolay: Maybe LinkedIn just deprioritize negative stuff and

just Prioritize positive stuff right?

People just congratulate with every step in career all the time.

This is what LinkedIn is, right?

What a great post.

Everything's so good.

This is just corporate style, you know

Michael: But true, it is more positive stuff, isn't it?

That is a good point

Nikolay: yeah, but I like to find problems and think about them,

so I

Michael: Think Most of these communities are not great for self-promotion,

but LinkedIn is 1 where promoting your own stuff is encouraged

and is very much part of the culture.

So I actually think that might be worth knowing.

If you're looking to be able to promote your own blog posts or

your own videos and things, that is a

Nikolay: great way to do that.

To build a reputation as an expert, LinkedIn I think is a good

way to gather attention.

Yeah, true.

Share ideas, collect feedback.

But I would expect true feedback not on LinkedIn.

On Twitter maybe.

Because on LinkedIn, I don't know.

Maybe just like some overall impression.

But yeah, what else?

There are sometimes unexpected communities.

I mean, discussions.

For example, remember we discussed limitations of ANALYZE single-threaded

and how to run it multiple threads and I created how to it's

still, this merge request on GitLab is still not merged.

Right, because suddenly we started having discussions there.

And a couple of folks chimed in and started sharing experiences.

It's interesting because new things appeared and I explored new

things.

For example, this post-upgrade ANALYZE of partition tables turned

out neither vacuumdb nor autovacuum take care about root partition

tables.

They don't update statistics at all.

If you run it manually, it's updated both for individual partitions

and main, like, root table.

But vacuumdb doesn't do it, and
it means post-upgrade.

If you do need the statistics,
you need to, additionally to vacuumdb,

you need additional single-threaded
ANALYZE on partitioned tables.

It's kind of interesting, right?

And there's no ANALYZE only, so
if you run on partitioned tables,

it will scan also partitions.

So it's like some rabbit hole I
didn't expect at all.

And these discussions are happening
still in Merge Request, you

know?

And they are threaded.

It's like commenting particular
piece of my write-up, it's definitely

threaded on GitHub and on GitLab.

It's very convenient.

Michael: Yeah, it doesn't surprise
me that that is happening

there because it's great for sharing
code and for being specific

and you can write a really long
if you if your comment is best

communicated as a very long piece
of writing that's easy on Twitter

that's trickier is You don't have
code formatting and there's

like a few subtleties of that being
much easier to communicate

clearly on some of these other
forums.

Nikolay: Yeah, so what I think
is to get all my, I have almost

100 how-tos written like started
a year ago and then I had a

marathon lasting 3 months or so.

So I'm thinking to create a book,
online free book, constantly

growing on GitHub, GitLab, maybe
on both and having community

around it.

Some small community, you know,
people who want to have good

run books, how to analyze at full
speed, for example.

vacuumdb and like number of cores,
what to think about, and so

on.

This is simple task at first glance,
but turned out not so simple.

Yeah, things not to forget.

And yeah, I just need to structure
these recipes and I'm very

curious what people think.

Let's test it.

Let's test if we have community.

I ask people who listen to this,
until this point, please comment

somewhere.

If you listen on YouTube, you know
there is comment section below,

as always people say.

But if it's broadcast, just Twitter
or...

Yeah, I use Twitter, so you can
just comment there, because we

have Postgres.FM account on Twitter
right

Michael: well yeah but if anybody
else was thinking of starting

a podcast around this I originally
I think if you'd asked me

in week 1, would I recommend doing
it to YouTube as well?

I wouldn't have been that fussed,
I would have thought it's not

that big a deal, most people are
going to listen to your podcast

via the audio stream, so it doesn't
matter that much, but we

would have missed out on so many
comments it's the the barrier

to leaving somebody some feedback via a podcast about an audio

only podcast it's hassle you have to look it up or you have to

write a review.

It's always tricky.

It's always a little bit of extra work.

The barrier to writing a comment when you're watching a video

on YouTube is so low that we get the vast majority, even though

most of our listeners don't listen on YouTube, the vast majority

of our feedback and comments come on YouTube.

Yeah, so, yeah.

Nikolay: My ask is to go to Postgres.tv it will redirect to YouTube

channel where we also publish Postgres.FM podcast and under this

episode please comment if you think it's a good idea.

Because I'm thinking for some time and I just need understanding

that it will be useful for other folks because I'm not doing

for myself.

For myself I already wrote a lot of stuff but I want to publish

for free and see if this resonates and is actually useful.

It's like a bunch of how-tos.

Michael: I don't know if I have to leave a comment on YouTube

but I would find that useful.

Nikolay: Good.

Plus 1.

Michael: Yeah, plus 1.

I think, and maybe I have a bias here but I've seen places kind

of try to encourage community involvement before and it's been

a list like sometimes the way that you have These discus things

or you have like I think There's a site I like by the team at

Ongress called postgresqlco.nf, and that has a whole section

for comments.

But either nobody does, or the quality of the comments are dubious,

so maybe some kind of, I don't know how you would encourage comments

or, and also moderate them for quality and things.

It's a tricky

Nikolay: topic.

Our website, Postgres.AI website and blog section doesn't have

comments.

There is a request and there is demand for comments people ask

from time to time.

My idea is discourse and all the approach to comments doesn't

work.

This morning I wanted, you know, we discussed topic about query

ID and auto_explain and the fact that on Aurora it didn't work

and then it turned out that it was Postgres 15.

And I saw a blog post on AWS blog and there are a couple of comments

there Asking why it doesn't work and I wanted to leave a comment

sharing my finding which I think thank you actually comes from

you That it starts starts working only since Pocket 16.

I spent 20 minutes, asynchronously, trying to register there

and create AWS Builder account.

I have Builder account, but they
say it's already blocked.

I just created it.

Why is it blocked?

For violation of something.

So these comments don't work, and
also I feel the urge to create

something new here, but I don't
know what.

We just discussed that there are
sometimes comments in merge

requests or pull requests, and they
are very contextual, right?

They belong to some part of the
text or the code.

And what if you publish an article,
normal thing is, I think

you also have it, source code is
already published on GitHub,

for example, right?

Sometimes even there is an edit
button to propose correction

of typo.

Also, not many people do it, right?

But what if the discussion would
be coming from GitHub or something

and related to code?

I don't know.

It's the job of GitLab to provide
some snippet so I could embed

into my website and have a discussion
maybe leading to some corrections

or additions to the text and improving
it.

So this is something I'm thinking,
but it doesn't exist yet.

GitHub doesn't provide it, GitLab
doesn't provide it.

Maybe it's a good idea for them
to consider, for those who keep

Macdown, for example, there on
GitHub or GitLab, and then it's

published to like in form of blog
post, right?

Because if you have Discos, it's
disconnected from everything.

Well, I don't know.

On depesz.com, comments work,
right?

Michael: Yeah, same on my blog.

Nikolay: Oh, great, great.

What do you use for...

Michael: I use Squarespace for
that blog, yeah.

But it works.

But I like having comments enabled
but I also like to be able

to moderate them.

If someone leaves a spam link and
then needs to delete it.

So they are important, and I find
them really, I actually find

them quite energizing.

Most comments are really positive,
like some people just saying

thank you for writing a post that's
helped them.

So I feel like that's quite nice,
and it's also quite nice for

other people to then read that
it helped us others, you know,

I think that's quite almost like
makes you feel like other people

have actually come across the same
issues as you, that kind of

thing, you know, community stuff.

Nikolay: Yeah, so anyway, like
folks who listen to us, please

leave a comment on YouTube and
say if you think it's a good idea

to have my how-tos published in
a different form, in the form

of book, online book.

And also just say simple words
if you consider this podcast useful.

We need it.

Right?

Michael: Do you know, actually,
something I didn't even think

to bring up was I've seen both
of us have done it But I've seen

you have quite a lot of success
with these polls on certain social

media.

Nikolay: Oh yeah, on Twitter.

It works on Twitter very well.

Michael: And I think LinkedIn quite
well as well.

People are way more likely to be
able to answer a poll than to

answer a question on some of these
sites.

And it can be really helpful.

I know it's biased.

Nikolay: I like polls.

Yeah, well, it always depends on,
like, you can influence it,

choosing proper language and options
you can influence.

But I mostly consider it more like
fun, but sometimes good insight.

Michael: Yeah, that's cool.

But the bias thing, I actually
didn't mean as much the wording

which can definitely sway survey
design and stuff is a whole

another topic but I actually meant
bias because Who does it reach

like it reaches your followers
and then depends a lot on who

likes it retweets it that kind
of thing

Nikolay: Of course

Michael: as to who it's even reaching
So for example, if you

with your followers asking a question
about Postgres versus

MySQL it would unlikely be a representative
poll.

Nikolay: It is so.

But this is my small world and
I like it and I'm curious what

people around my Twitter account
think.

This is what I'm most interested
in.

I'm not interested in people who
just like very far and like

MySQL users and like what do, what they think about pg_dump.

Although sometimes we have intersections
as well.

And, quite often CEO of PlanetScale
chimes in asking something

about Postgres, so it's interesting.

Michael: Which by the way, that's
incredible, right?

That we can be having a conversation
online and the CEO of PlanetScale...

Nikolay: Well I don't have such...

I don't have such...

How to say...

Perception.

So, CEO, so what?

It's good that...

I mean, it's good that I'm dealing
with himself, not with his

assistant, because sometimes, you
know, democracy works in the

US, for example, but I cannot reach
the director of my daughter's

elementary school because she sends
assistant to organize zoom

call and doesn't respond to emails
for 2 weeks.

Yeah, well, I just appreciate when any level of manager, they

just go and talk directly.

It's great.

Michael: And listen to users.

Yeah, Whether or not it's listening is another question I guess.

Actually before we wrap up I had a couple of others just quick,

they're not really communities but I realized when you mentioned

Hacker News it was kind of like a little bit of staying in touch

with what's happening And I realized I actually rely on non-community.

Well, I guess one's relatively community-driven, which is

Planet PostgreSQL, which is a blogging syndication platform.

That's kind of a community site in a way.

Lots of people from non-official sources posting about Postgres.

And I find that an extremely helpful way of staying in the loop

of what people are thinking about what issues people are hitting

what products people are building that kind of thing and on a

similar vein Especially if you don't want to follow all of those

Postgres Weekly is a good newsletter for like what are the highlights

this week from the Postgres world

Nikolay: Yep.

Michael: Is there anything else in that kind of vein that

you'd point people to...

Nikolay: Well, I don't think newsletters are communities because

you don't have full-out discussion there.

But yeah, I agree, it's a good source of what's happening.

Michael: Yeah, true.

Any last advice or things for people?

Nikolay: Well, Thank you for all who are listening to us.

We will discuss, like, very interesting topics are coming, I

must say.

Stay tuned.

Yeah.

Michael: I like that.

I'm going to consider that a performance pun.

Nikolay: Stay, yeah, performance tuned as well

Michael: stay tuned yeah exactly

Nikolay: good

Michael: take care thanks a lot Nikolay